Ian Carr's 'Blind Jukebox' with Tom Callaghan

Ian Carr's 'Blind Jukebox' with Tom Callaghan (this was originally produced for a Jazz 
magazine in 1995 and is reproduced with the author's permission) 

Ian Carr, the jazz trumpeter, composer, writer and broadcaster, very kindly agreed to take 
part in this 'Blind Jukebox' despite considerable pressures on his time. As well as revising 
his acclaimed biography of Miles Davis and his Jazz: The Essential Companion, Ian has just 
returned from a long tour with the United Jazz and Rock Ensemble. In addition, his commitments 
as a teacher at the Guildhall and his criticism for the BBC Music Magazine occupy a lot of his 
time. Neverthess, he insisted on wining and dining me before we listened to my compilation of 
modern jazz trumpet playing. A genuinely modest and self-effacing man, his comments were never 
less than perceptive, and revealed not only his deep commitment to jazz but to his thoughtful, 
artistic nature. We listened to some wonderful players, and the tape even had a twist in the tail!

(1)
Chet Baker
You Can't Go Home Again
(Chet Baket, trumpet; Paul Desmond, alto; Kenny Barron, piano, Ron Carter, bass; Tony Williams, 
drums; Don Sebesky, el piano) You Can't Go Home Again, Chet Baker, 1977
Ian Carr: Is that Paul Desmond? And late Chet Baker? I like him in his old age because there's 
a depth of feeling there.There's another dimension in his older playing, a sureness of the notes, 
he's prepared not to play too many . He can play a lot, of course, but he's prepared to play fewer
notes, rather like Miles Davis. All the notes sing with this incredible lyrical feeling, so that 
you feel the man is putting the whole of his being into the notes that he's playing at this 
particular moment. In a sense, all you can ask of any artist is that he puts all his being 
into it, whether it's in words or paints or music. I think Chet Baker had got rid of so much 
consciousness, because of the way he lived, that everything was focussed on this one thing. 
His meaning of life was to play: whatever his love affairs, or his private life, his tragedies 
or his triumphs, the actual thing that gave him real meaning was the way he played. Herbie 
Hancock said that the interesting thing about Chet Baker is that he never learned to read 
music particularly well, if at all really, so his instinctive playing is absolutely fabulous. 
He's actually making music at this moment in time, not a note in sight, not even a note in his 
head in terms of written music, but coming straight from the heart through the mouth, to us.
Tom Callaghan: Despite the drugs? Or because of them?
IC: I think the drugs may have cut out some of his consciousness, which enabled him to focus so 
much, but there's a kind of wisdom of life in his later playing which may have come just from 
living, not from drugs. Maybe the fact that he was forced to concentrate on the notes that were 
coming immediately in front of him, the notes he was producing may have been due to a lack of 
consciousness. I like Chet Baker very much, early and late, he's a very nice musician who speaks 
to me.
(2)
Wynton Marsalis
The Flight of the Bumblebee
(Wynton Marsalis, cornet)
Wynton Marsalis, Portrait of..., 1983
IC: Is it Harry James? I know it's 'Flight of the Bumblebee' (laughs)
TC: It's not Harry James.
IC: He did it first though, on the trumpet. Was it a jazz player?
TC: Yes, but one who got famous imitating a different jazz player than Harry James.
IC: I've no idea who it was at all. 
TC: Wynton Marsalis.
IC: Well, I'm disgusted with him (laughs). I really am disgusted with him for doing that!
TC: Because of what it is?
IC: Yes, because of what it is; when Miles Davis wanted to insult someone he said " You might as 
well try playing 'Flight of the Bumblebee'" (laughs). I'm surprised Wynton Marsalis did it actually, 
I really am. When you think he plays the Hummel and various trumpet concertos, why did he do that? 
There are lots of trumpet players who could do that, and it didn't have to be Marsalis, and I didn't 
recognise Marsalis' playing from that. It sounded just like some guy with facility playing a trumpet: 
in terms of individuality, I would rate it zero.
TC: Is Marsalis simply trying to relive the '50s Davis band?
IC: Well, I think Marsalis has been under too much influence from Stanley Crouch, who seems to be 
his guru, because Crouch is by no means the ultimate authority on music, let alone jazz. A lot of 
these statements by Marsalis seem to echo those of Crouch, who doesn't like Miles Davis at all, 
for example. Anybody who advised Wynton Marsalis to go on stage with Miles Davis and ask for a 
blow did him a great disservice. To ask Davis for a blow after insulting him was very foolish. 
Davis stopped the band and said "Get out of here; get off, go away."
There's something obscene about a twenty-odd year old musician advising a person like Miles Davis 
what to do with his life. It's like a young guy going up to Picasso and saying "Why are you doing 
ceramics? A genius like you? How could you waste your time doing ceramics?" Picasso made ceramics 
because that's what he wanted to do. Whatever interests him, he wants to do it. And with Miles 
Davis, it's the same. Marsalis wasn't the first young musician to try to tell Miles what to do; 
there's a big difference between a twenty year old and a forty year old, particularly in jazz.
(3)
Lew Soloff
Goodbye Pork Pie Hat
(Lew Soloff, trumpet, flugelhorn; Gil Evans, el piano; Pete Levin, synth; Hiram Bullock, guitar; 
Mark Egan, bass; Adam Nussbaum, drums, Manolo Badrena, perc)
Hanalei Bay, Lew Soloff, 1986
IC: (partway through) Lester Bowie? (at the end) Is it a white player? Is it Lew Soloff?
TC: Yes. But what made you ask that?
IC: Because I couldn't think of a black player who was a modernist who had that kind of vibrato 
on certain notes, and also growled like that. I had Lew Soloff in the back of my mind, because 
of the purity of the high notes he hit. When I said Lester Bowie, he hadn't really hit any high 
notes, and if I'd heard those high notes I'd never have said Lester Bowie, but I first thought, 
from the growls and the vibrato, which is an kind of thing, that it was Bowie putting it on, but 
it wasn't. It was Lew Soloff, not putting it on but being himself. And of course, he's an 
incredibly good player. He's one of these guys, who, like wine, matures with age. Some of his 
really great work has been done quite recently with Carla Bley; his actual sound on 'Big Band 
Theory' is really beautiful. It's the best sound he's ever had, a beautiful fat lyrical sound, 
and fantastic chops and stamina, and great phrases: he's really coming into his own.
TC : With Lew Soloff and Gary Valenti really battling it out!
IC: It's chalk and cheese: Valenti is more a jive eccentric than a jive virtuoso, but Soloff 
is a virtuoso, a man who's getting more emotion into his playing in old age than he did when 
he was younger.
TC: What about his work with Gil Evans' band?
IC: He's terrific with Gil Evans' band, but I still think he's playing better now. He's always 
been brilliant technically, but he's coming into his own in these later stages, and maybe one 
of the reasons is the continuity of always working with Carla Bley and always being the main 
featured soloist. This is a great compliment from Carla; he's risen to the occasion, and he's 
playing really well because of that. These things are so subtle: why emotion starts coming out 
in a player can depend on all kinds of subtle psychological things that are going on with the 
people around him. I think Lew is suddenly coming out as a big emotional player as well as a 
great technical player.
(4)
Charles Tolliver
Truth
(Charles Tolliver, trumpet; Stanley Cowell, piano; Clint Houston, bass; Clifford Barbaro, drums)
Live In Tokyo, Charles Tolliver/Music Inc, 1973
IC: Well, I didn't get that one!
TC: Charles Tolliver.
IC: Life is very unfair, you know, because Charles Tolliver is a very good player, a very good 
player indeed, but for some reason, he's not very easily distinguishable from other people. When 
I used to listen to him in the '60s - quite a long time ago - he always seemed to me to be in the 
Freddie Hubbard vein, or even Woody Shaw, but he didn't seem to have the individuality which really 
marks you out from the crowd. But he always seemed to be a very good player, excellent technically, 
and would play great things. So I haven't heard of him, he's been off the scene for years... but 
lots of people are off the scene - not forgetting yours truly! - and in a sense, they're probably 
playing just as well or better than they ever did play. But everybody can't be on the scene all 
the time, there's just not enough room, there are too many people clamouring for attention. But 
it was great to hear Charles Tolliver again; he played extremely nicely, and I liked it a lot...
(5)
Herb Alpert
Jump Street
(Herb Alpert, trumpet; Greg Smith, keyboards, bass, guitar, programming; Joe Rotondi, Piano; Kevin 
Ricard, perc)
North On South St, Herb Alpert, 1991
IC: Who was the guy - I'm sure it's him! - who ran a record company after he played the trumpet, 
in harmony with other trumpets? 
TC: Herb Alpert?
IC: That's him! Well, yes, I'm not surprised! Dire! Absolutely dire! I thought it was him but I 
couldn't think of his name! He's a good technician, a good trumpeter, and probably he's also a 
very nice guy, you know? 
TC: That's the most damning thing you can say about anybody!
IC: Yes, but you can have absolutely dreadful human beings who can produce something interesting. 
I've heard Herb Alpert playing things that are beautifully played, but I've never heard him play 
anything that moved me, and I'm sure that he's the first person who knows he can't do that. And 
that's why he's such a nice guy and why he runs a record company and why he helps other people 
so much, because he's a great help to other musicians...
(6)
Art Farmer
Concerto For Billy the Kid (unreleased take)
(George Russell Smalltet)
Jazz Workshop, George Russell Smalltet, 1956
IC: (after a few seconds) Art Farmer!
IC: The thing about Art Farmer is that he's instantly recognisable. I can recognise Art Farmer 
anywhere and this is an amazing gift. I don't think Art had to work at that, it's just the way 
he articulates notes, and he's got a curious way of separating the notes when he plays. They 
don't run into one another the way most trumpet players do so: they're actually like beads on 
a string, and that's very curious. He's got this very nice thing that he does: a little bit of 
vibrato at the end of the note and its a very unique and original way of playing. Everybody's 
unique, and it just so happens by some freak of fortune that Art got his uniqueness into his 
playing. If everybody could do that, everybody would be getting great audiences everywhere. I 
talked to him about this record with George Russell, because it's very hard to play, the music 
is very difficult, and they played as if it was easy. I asked Art how they did it and he said 
that they rehearsed the music every Sunday for months and when they were ready to do something 
they did it. Art is one of the very very few original individual players around today: I like 
him very much, he's got a great feeling and tone.
TC: You've played with George Russell; did you find his music hard to play?
IC: Yes, it's hard to play, and it's also hard physically in terms of duration and stamina, 
you've got to be in really good shape to play with George. It requires great control but the 
rewards are very great. It's a joy; George began as a drummer and his music is always incredibly 
eloquent rhythmically, full of the most wonderful rhythms, and he also has very good guys playing 
with him. It's a joy to work with him, although you really have to give your all for George, 
George demands everything you can give and more, and when you've given everything, he's still 
asking for more. At the end, you're completely spent, but the rewards are very great, and some 
of it is sheer ecstacy, when the band's really going.
(7)
Kenny Wheeler
Deer Wan
(Kenny Wheeler, trumpet, flugelhorn; Jan Garbarek, tenor, soprano; John Abercrombie, guitar, 
mandolin; Dave Holland, bass; Jack DeJohnette, drums)
Deer Wan, Kenny Wheeler, 1977
IC: Kenny Wheeler, with Jan Gabarek, John Abercrombie, from the record 'Deer Wan' which is one 
of my favourite records. The feeling on 'Deer Wan' is phenomenal: there's a track in 6/4 where 
the feeling is simply amazing. What can I say? Kenny is one of the great original trumpeters 
playing today; he's like Art Farmer, he cannot help being himself, and he's so completely 
different from any other self, he's a complete original. He's a giant of the trumpet technically 
as well as emotionally. People said of Miles that he made a virtue out of his shortcomings and 
became very original - I don't know whether that's true actually! - and with Kenny, there are 
certain things he can't do very well; he can't really play bebop, which is a string of even 
quavers when you're soloing. He doesn't do that so well, so he does it in a different way; 
they're not even, they're uneven, and out of this comes his originality. But he's one of the 
greatest trumpeters playing today, without a shadow of a doubt, one of the most original. The 
emotional range of his work may be narrow but it's very deep, and actually it's better to be 
narrow and deep than wide and shallow...
(8)
Lester Bowie
I Only Have Eyes For You
(Lester Bowie, trumpet; Stanton Davis, trumpet, flugelhorn; Malachi Thompson, trumpet; Bruce 
Purse, trumpet; Craig Harris, trombone; Steve Turre, trombone; Vincent Chancey, french horn; 
Bob Stewart, tuba; Phillip Wilson, drums)
I Only Have Eyes For You, Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy, 1985
IC: Lester Bowie? I thought it was Lester Bowie because of the growling and the slurring of 
the notes, the half-valve choked effects. This really comes from Rex Stewart out of the 
Ellington band, who was a master of this sort of thing. He could do something which I've 
never heard anybody else do, do an entire conversation on the half-valve, like two people 
talking - arguing with each other over the fence. Lester Bowie invests a lot of theatricality 
in his music, and I think that the sound that he was doing was tongue-in-cheek. The only excuse 
for it would be that it was done with a sardonic intent, because it's threadbare musically; there 
are two chords in there, and nothing much happening. I find that - as a general rule in this 
music - the more theatricality you have, the more threadbare the music. It also happens in 
avant-garde groups, say the Globe Unity Orchestra. They all say they're satirising the medium, 
doing a cod blues or whatever, but really it's because they don't know what else to do. This 
kind of satirical commentary his a fairly limited place in jazz; I like Lester Bowie though, 
he's a good player.
(9)
Freddie Hubbard
What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life?
(Freddie Hubbard, trumpet; Herbie Hancock, piano; Milt Jackson, vibes; Ron Carter, bass; Billy 
Cobham, drums)
Sunflower, Milt Jackson, 1972
IC: What can I say? Freddie Hubbard is a marvellous trumpet player, and quite a major influence 
on other players. He worked out a whole series of new ways of using fourths, which are very 
typical of his playing, and which influenced a lot of people, like Woody Shaw. He's a fantastic 
technician, and capable of playing of the very highest calibre. He's not a good band leader, his 
best playing is never with his own bands, it's with other leaders, like Dolphy on 'Out to Lunch', 
with Coltrane, with Oliver Nelson. When he's left to his own devices, he never seems to reach that 
pitch of greatness.
TC: Is that because it's his own material? Or because he's got other concerns?
IC: There's not the focus there; he always plays beautifully, you could never fault him technically, 
but when he's with giants... all trumpet players after Louis Armstrong were influenced by sax players, 
for example, Dizzy with Charlie Parker. Now Freddie Hubbard roomed with Eric Dolphy, and would 
practice the same exercises, all those huge interval leaps, and that made his playing very different 
and individual. 
(10)
Mark Isham
Trouble In Mind (The Return)
(Mark Isham, trumpet; Marianne Faithfull, vocals; Pee Wee Ellis, sax; Kurt Wortman, percussion; 
Peter Maunu, guitar)
'Trouble In Mind' Original Film Soundtrack, 1986
IC: No idea.
TC: He's reputed to be the highest-paid trumpet player in the world. Mark Isham.
IC: It could have been anyone, it could have been Palle Mikkelberg - any good trumpet player 
copying Miles. But I like the track; I used to play it when I was young.
(11)
Ian Carr
My Funny Valentine
(Ian Carr, trumpet; Nico, vocals, harmonium; keyboards, James Young; Graham Dids, perc)
Camera Obscura, Nico + the faction, 1985
IC: I don't know who that trumpet player was.
TC: Any good?
IC: Yes I think he was good.
TC: It's a guy called Ian Carr.
IC: (laughs) What? Is it really me? It sounded a bit too good for me. God, that was really good. 
I remember the session. The producer was John Cale...
TC: Founder of the Velvet Underground.
IC: I remember, Cale wasn't hard to work with, but he was one of those guys who always want to try 
something else, even when you know it's done. But we did this in one take. I was playing flugelhorn, 
and they put a lot of sound on it. I don't remember it, I never got a copy of the record, but a 
reviewer in Melody Maker praised this unknown trumpet player!
TC: It was either going to be this track or the track you did with No-man: they were very 
complimentary about you in the Wire, saying about how Nucleus were doing in Europe what Miles was 
doing in America, and what an influence you were.
IC: Well, thank you very much; when you get a pat on the back like that, it does wonders for your 
feelings about yourself, because a lot of the time, it's like sending messages in a bottle, you 
can't tell if it's survived!
TC: Ian, thanks very much.